Scholars & Saints
Scholars & Saints is the official podcast of the University of Virginia’s Mormon Studies program, housed in the Department of Religious Studies. Scholars & Saints is a venue of public scholarship that promotes respectful dialogue about Latter Day Saint traditions among laypersons and academics.
Scholars & Saints
Latter-day Saint Temples: Past and Present (feat. Jonathan Stapley)
Latter-day Saint temples and their rituals have been an oft discussed and frequently misunderstood element of Mormon practice. But how can scholars hope to understand Mormon temples when their rituals are exclusive to members, and their liturgies kept secret?
Historian and scientist Jonathan Stapley discusses these questions on today's episode of Scholars & Saints. Drawing on his brand-new book, Holiness to the Lord: Latter-day Saint Temple Worship, Stapley, drawing on newly released and digitized sources, argues that the temple is the place where Latter-day Saints are able to order their bodies, their communities, and their universe. By examining the history of the temple, specific liturgies, and the impact of race and gender prohibitions, Stapley shows how the temple has evolved over time to curate Latter-day Saint cosmologies.
To learn more about Jonathan Stapley and his work, visit his website.
Introduction
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Nicholas Shrum
You're listening to Scholars and Saints. The UVA mormon Studies podcast. I'm your host, Nicholas Shrum, a PhD candidate in American religions at the University of Virginia. On this podcast, we dive into the academic study of Mormonism. We engage recent and classic scholarship, interview prominent and up and coming thinkers in the field, and reflect on Mormonism relevance to the broader study of religion, scholars, and saints is brought to you by support from the Richard Lyman Bushman Endowed Professorship of Mormon Studies in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of Virginia.
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Nicholas Shrum
The podcast goal is to discuss some of the most pressing issues and cutting edge methods in Mormon studies, and put them in conversation with scholarship from the discipline of religious studies. While the podcast content explores Mormonism, the views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any organizations they represent or study, including The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints and the University of Virginia.
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Nicholas Shrum
Today on the podcast, I speak with Jonathan Steeply, a historian of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, about his upcoming book with Oxford University Press entitled holiness to the Lord latter day Saint temple worship. Steeply argues that, quote, the temple has remained a liturgical space where latter day Saints generate a sacred cosmic identity. The temple is a site where latter day Saints order their bodies, their communities, and their universe, and.
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Nicholas Shrum
Quote. During our conversation, we discuss the history of latter day Saint temples, including the theological ideas that underpin the rituals performed within them, such as exaltation, sealings, the endowment, and priesthood. Stapley’s book offers important insights into contemporary latter day Saint life and practice as it discusses the centrality of race and gender to the history of Library Saint Temple's, Holiness to
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Nicholas Shrum
The Lord also traces important changes over time to the temple liturgy that reflect institutional priorities, such as accessibility and the needs of globalization. For listeners unfamiliar with the purpose and history of latter day Saint temples, this will be a helpful and insightful episode into what has become one of the most central aspects of 21st century Mormonism. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation with Jonathan Staveley.
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Unknown
You may be.
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Nicholas Shrum
Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Scholars and Saints, the UVM Mormon Studies Podcast. Today, I'm very excited to have historian and scientist Jonathan Stapley, talk about his most recent upcoming book with Oxford University Press, holiness to the Lord, which is an excellent history and description and, exploration of latter day Saint worship in temples, and the liturgy and the ritual.
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Nicholas Shrum
He, Jonathan Steeply is previously the author of an my a book award winner, Power of Godliness Mormon Liturgy and Cosmology, which was also published with Oxford University Press in 2018. He's also the author of a number of wonderful articles in Mormon studies, journal publications, and, just really grateful to have him on the podcast today.
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Nicholas Shrum
So welcome, Jonathan.
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Jonathan Stapley
Thank you so much, Nicholas. Pleasure.
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Nicholas Shrum
I really enjoyed reading your book, and I'm so glad that I was able to read a copy. Before it comes out, it looks like it's currently slated to, get into people's hands around October of 2025. So hopefully that when people listen to this, they can kind of get a sense of why you wrote the book and, some of the content and why you found it so interesting as a topic.
Jonathan Stapley’s Background
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Nicholas Shrum
So I'm actually wonder if we can start off with a little bit about your background, where you come from kind of education you have what projects you've worked on in the past?
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Jonathan Stapley
Absolutely. So, I come to Mormon studies from, less typical path. I have a PhD in chemistry. I work with electrochemistry of carbohydrates. I dissertation in 2004, and then the Dow, starting a company, the industrialize. My graduate work. And immediately, after wrapping up graduate school, I started working concurrently in, the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
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Jonathan Stapley
It was at that time that universities were beginning to digitize their collections. And, I really started digging in, perhaps to satiate a desire to do research and writing that I wasn't was no longer doing kind of in the capacity of of being an executive. And at that time, there was just a lot of wide open space and a lot of the great thing about Mormon studies, it's very collaborative.
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Jonathan Stapley
So there were people that were willing to help, kind of guide me along the way. Coming from the, from chemistry, where every publication is collaboratively researched and written, I was just very comfortable in collaborating with, other scholars, and that turned out to be just a tremendous opportunity for me to grow, but also to produce some work that I'm very proud of.
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Jonathan Stapley
Some of the first publications I worked on were with Chris Wright, who's just wrapping up her PhD now at Princeton. Her dissertation is absolutely gorgeous. We, we had a series of articles on un healing that culminated in, kind of a very large article on latter day Saint women, performing healing rituals. And it's just kind of been a space that I've been very interested in since.
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Nicholas Shrum
Awesome. Yeah, I, we love having people on the podcast that, come from a whole different, you know, variety of backgrounds. We've had scientists, we've had lawyers. And so this is just another great, way to show listeners how Mormon Studies really is this very collaborative, inclusive field that, people are able to, to, to come into and make their contribution.
Background to Holiness to the Lord
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Nicholas Shrum
So what led you to research and write your most recent book, holiness to the Lord?
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Jonathan Stapley
So I have been interested in the liturgical space, for the last two decades. So for me, it's a really rich, way to analyze religion, and, Mormonism and in particular. So, I often use a metaphor of, of that that comes from science that, scientists often make models of systems that they work with.
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Jonathan Stapley
And we're kind of familiar with the idea that, like, the atom, started out, people maybe created an analogy with the solar system. You have a nucleus and electrons spin around it, but that was insufficient for the data that existed. And, scholars, created new models, quantum mechanics and that better fit the data and really opened, the field to new possibilities.
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Jonathan Stapley
And, that's how I kind of approach. And I think intuitively, we all approach the world this way, where we have kind of heuristics and models that allow us to function, but we're not always consistent in our approach to the data. So, for, latter day Saints history, we have these definitions and understandings and frameworks that are inherited within the tradition they develop over time.
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Jonathan Stapley
But they don't always incorporate historical data or even all the present data. And so, liturgy for me, is a, tremendously powerful tool to establish these models. What what's really happening? For The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints priesthood is this paramount idea. And so what is priesthood and how does it function?
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Jonathan Stapley
And I guess going back to your previous question, it became obvious quickly, as soon as you delve into the primary sources at all, go back to 200 years where we're approaching the 200 year anniversary of the establishment of the church, and you can see practices and, the usage of terms that doesn't quite jibe with, current understandings.
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Jonathan Stapley
And so that data, needs to be incorporated in our models. And I would say that, this is the reason I think Latter-Day Saints history and Mormon studies can be really useful and germane to the broader field of religious studies, is that there's just a surfeit of data. We have so much, so many documents, so much material, literal mountains of it, that really allow us to explore, models and theories that just are difficult when you don't have that.
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Nicholas Shrum
No, that's, that's a really helpful way to to introduce this study and thinking about liturgical studies, and these different frameworks that scholars, historians, religious studies people, investigate various traditions. And so the the topic of your, your book is about the latter day Saint temples. Right. And so, for example, one of these, terms or concepts that you would maybe you point out in the book, right, is that when Latter-Day Saints first establish a quote unquote temple, right.
Introduction to Latter-day Saint Temples
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Nicholas Shrum
It's not even called a temple. It's called the House of the Lord. Right. And so that that's just a very small example of how just even a concept of, other of a practice or a building, an architecture even has different meanings. And, and, layers of meaning right over time. So, for those that are unfamiliar with, latter day Saint temples, could you give just a brief kind of introduction to, how you would, explain that to, to an audience that it's perhaps mostly non, latter day Saints?
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Jonathan Stapley
Yeah. So, on the one hand, latter day Saints have regular weekly worship services that would, perhaps not be too forward, foreign to somebody that has experienced large church Christian worship in the past. So we have Sunday service that celebrates the Lord's Supper, hymns, prayers, sermons by a members of the congregation. During the week there is youth, ministries and sometimes women's ministries.
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Jonathan Stapley
And those are all open to the public. They even have open communion. Temples, on the other hand, aren't even open on Sundays. Right. So temples are closed on Sundays. Temples are a place where there is, set of ceremonies, liturgies, that, Joseph Smith began revealing in the early years of the church's existence in the 1830s.
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Jonathan Stapley
But really, the core foundation is in the 1840s. But there's a series of liturgies that, I mean, I don't want to jump get in too complicated, but, I think most people, most latter day Saints will think about it. Well, this is where I want to get married. People get married in the temple. And so that's perhaps the most public manifestation of what happens there, because you can drive by a temple, particularly in the spring and summer, and see brides and grooms out getting their pictures taken out in front of it.
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Jonathan Stapley
But it's not just civil marriage. It's a religious marriage. And in particular, it is a, marriage for eternity. And I think this is how, latter day Saints have largely talked about, even internally about what the temple is for is to construct eternal families. But there's a whole set of other liturgies that, can be viewed in preparation to or in conjunction with these eternal marriage sealings to, to use the vernacular, and that is a, so what Joseph Smith did was to identify archetypes in the Bible, the consecration of, ancient Israelite priests, the creation of a concourse of heavenly priests and kings and queens and priestesses
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Jonathan Stapley
around the throne of God as seen in the Book of Revelation. And he materialized that through, the liturgy of the temple. So there is a dramatic presentation of, what latter day Saints called a plan of salvation. There is a washing and anointing ceremony that, consecrate both men and women. As, priests in heaven and on earth.
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Jonathan Stapley
And so all of these different, ceremonies collapse into the formation of eternal relationships that span time and space. So that was kind of I just kind of barfed on you, of like a, like, data dump of what happens at the temples, but what's important to realize is that the the temple ceremonies are restricted to not just church members, but a subset of church members that can qualify to enter the temples.
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Jonathan Stapley
So, they are limited as to who can access them. And there is a tradition of privacy or even secrecy surrounding what happens in the temple. So you have to negotiate those kind of cultural strictures around discussing the temple as well. So Latter-Day Saints can be cagey about how they talk about the temple, as can be awkward because they don't have the, experience or, vocabulary to talk about, the temple with outsiders.
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Jonathan Stapley
Yeah, that's really helpful.
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Nicholas Shrum
I mean, in my experience living in Virginia, doing grad school and talking with people that aren't Mormon. Right, though, if I discuss the temple, they probably know a couple of things. One, it's where, you know, Mormon weddings happen. They'll explain kind of what you said, especially in, in in Charlottesville. Maybe they're from the, the or been around the D.C. area.
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Nicholas Shrum
So they've seen the D.C. temple and the in conjunction with that, probably the next thing is what you said is this it's an exclusionary space, right? So if they know a mormon that got married there, they couldn't go there where they'd heard stories about, latter day Saints couple that got married. But maybe one of the the partners didn't have Mormon families so they weren't able to go in.
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Nicholas Shrum
So that's a really helpful kind of get us where we think about things contemporarily with the temple. The other thing that I just is really awesome in this, leads into the next question about how, your study, I think, differs from a lot of, studies of the temple, especially more apologist literature on temples, is that it hasn't always been that way.
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Nicholas Shrum
Right. So one of the ways that, especially in latter day Saint discourse, the church is talked about is that it's very it's, you know, a vocal it's from the beginning to the end. It's the same. It's it's revealed anciently, you know, talking about revelations that Joseph Smith dictated in the 1830s having the exact same relevance and, and context that they might have in the 21st century when that wasn't necessarily the case.
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Nicholas Shrum
And that even goes to, whether or not the temple is it was exclusive, right.
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Jonathan Stapley
That's right.
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Nicholas Shrum
I think that develops over time where the house of the Lord in Kirtland. Right. Wasn't necessarily this super exclusive space.
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Jonathan Stapley
That's right. So the House of the Lord in Kirtland functioned almost as a, church or a chapel. It also had this function of a temple as well, or at least the at that stage of development. But people knew what was happening there. They understood the, the ceremonies, in a more public way. And it's not until Nauvoo that there's this kind of culture of secrecy that develops around the temple liturgy.
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Jonathan Stapley
And I there's a lot of reasons for that. There's clearly some trauma from the Missouri period, the violence that occurred against latter day Saints. There's also, sense of sacredness. But frankly, there's also the reality that Joseph Smith used, so Justice Smith before revealing the temple endowment ceremony in Nauvoo, participated in, Freemasonry. So he was initiated into Freemasonry and in Freemasonry, there's a kind of initiatory ritual that is a dramatic presentation.
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Jonathan Stapley
Tells the story of, the construction of the Solomon Temple. And the main character is, is a mason who's overseeing the construction, and he ultimately gets murdered because he's defending, he he doesn't want to reveal all the, The the insider knowledge of, of of the craft. And Joseph Smith sees this and clearly, like everybody around him who also is aware of what's happening, clearly uses the method of teaching that within Freemasonry to tell a completely different story.
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Jonathan Stapley
So for Joseph Smith, he narrates the cosmic trajectory of humanity from the creation to the through the fall to the return to, God, after this world, but when he does that, he also includes the, the privacy, the oaths of privacy that are included in the free Masonic, initiation. So there is baked in to the ceremonies an expectation commitment to privacy or secrecy.
How Stapley Approaches a Study of the Temple
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Nicholas Shrum
And that, that tradition of secrecy or confidentiality is one that you actually respect, I think, quite well in your treatment of the latter day Saint Temple throughout your book, I'm wondering if you could say just a tiny bit more about how, maybe how you yourself as a scholar, approach a study of the temple, but also maybe kind of what what is best practice and how can other scholars approach a study of the temple?
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Nicholas Shrum
I am thinking of here when, for instance, if somebody goes to the LDS church archives in Salt Lake City and they request, a collection, sometimes it will say that this collection is, is, not accessible because it has sacred, confidential, sensitive materials. And that's certainly the case with things when it comes to the temple. I'm wondering if you could just speak a little bit more about kind of that, that approach.
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Jonathan Stapley
Yeah. Navigating those, restrictions. So there's a couple of things that are important. As, as we talk about this, the first is, is that the church, itself, the institutional church over the last decade has really, changed its and, changed its approach to how it, polices these boundaries. So in the last ten years, we've had, publication of details about the temple ceremonies that used to be, formally prohibited, to members discussing namely the specific covenants and commitments and promises they make.
00;20;57;01 - 00;21;33;09
Jonathan Stapley
The church has published those. They've the church has published images of the temple clothing, the liturgical vestments that members wear as part of the temple ceremonies. They've even published the temple garment, which is the the underwear that Mormons wear after they've participated in the temple. They've. And that's sort of mind boggling that, I don't know that, publishing pictures of the garment or this, religious underwear really does much to expand any particular understanding of its function.
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Jonathan Stapley
But it does kind of satiate that implicit or, and like, curiosity that everybody has for, when as soon as you say something is secret. Right. So it kind of demystifies what's happening there. So there's been a cultural change, over the last 15 years. The Church History library has been on a process of digitization where they're they're committed to basically digitize their entire holdings.
00;22;04;17 - 00;22;35;25
Jonathan Stapley
And as they do that, they have a process of redacting material that's sacred, private or confidential. And you can go to the church's, the, the catalogs website to get a like a granular, description of what those redactions are. But, they will, digitize, like they will put up images of documents and things that have what they believe, sacred information regarding the temple.
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Jonathan Stapley
We'll have a word or two words redacted sometimes. And this has been wildly helpful to researchers because, collections that had been closed for, I mean, forever, right, are now open maybe with like, just a couple of words redacted and, I mean, those words weren't what was important anyways. And so the there's been just a huge, huge shift institutionally.
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Jonathan Stapley
What I will say as a scholar is that, and as a, frankly, as a human being, right. If you go to Bangkok, you will be reminded that, on umbrellas and signage that the Buddha is not, the Buddha is for respecting is not for tattoos and not for furniture. And you'll see that, like everywhere and like most human beings are like, okay, yeah, I get that.
00;23;40;22 - 00;24;17;06
Jonathan Stapley
So we can have that sort of, empathy where that starts to break down is, a culture of secrecy in religion and in popular media, particularly in popular culture, secrecy and religion is inflected with suspicions of, abuse and Conspiracy. Frankly, and and rightly so. I mean, there have been patterns of religious abuse and conspiracy that, make those, inflections quite justified.
00;24;17;08 - 00;24;51;26
Jonathan Stapley
But it doesn't change the fact that, religions, including Christianity, for thousands of years, have used, confidentiality, privacy or secrecy as ways of constructing the sacred. And so in my study, so Latter-Day Saints specifically promised not to disclose like a small, tiny bit of their temple ceremonies. And for me, they're like the least interesting bits. And so it's not that big of a deal not to talk about them.
00;24;51;28 - 00;25;22;26
Jonathan Stapley
To use another analogy, I think there is a temptation, for latter day Saints scholars in particular. But, observers of latter day Saint ritual to focus on mechanics. So, like, if I were to, show a car or an automobile to someone that hadn't seen it before, and I was to ask what? What is this for?
00;25;22;26 - 00;25;52;19
Jonathan Stapley
What does this do? There's been a temptation and a propensity for for scholars to say, well, it's for pushing pedals and rotating wheels. But that's not what it does. Right? The, the cars to transportation, which is obvious, but if you've never seen it before, it's easy to just focus on like, oh, this is shifting gears.
00;25;52;19 - 00;26;47;23
Jonathan Stapley
And this is how we've shifted gears over time, which this is how a carburetor works. And all of those are, can be interesting questions, but it's not, like exactly what I'm interested in. And so, I prioritize the documents and, the, the language used by latter day Saints themselves. And in their journals, it turns out that, the documents and journals and minutes and correspondence generated by latter day Saints themselves as they've experienced the Templar voluminous, they're widely available in not only the catalog of the Church History library, but in the other repositories that hold latter day Saint archival materials like the University of Utah and
00;26;47;23 - 00;27;13;03
Jonathan Stapley
BYU and, look, even the FamilySearch, website, Latter-Day Saints have been encouraged to keep their family histories for generations. And in doing so, the temple's always been an important feature. And so we can find all sorts of things to document, the lived experience and the reality of these liturgies in their lives.
00;27;13;06 - 00;27;34;25
Nicholas Shrum
It's really helpful. And one of the things I love that you said that I feel like you have a, a special positionality here as a scientist, right? Is that there is a tendency, including in humanities scholarship at times to focus on mechanisms rather than kind of the larger, you know, in essence, missing the forest for the trees kind of a thing.
00;27;34;28 - 00;27;53;14
Nicholas Shrum
There's and the other thing I love about this is, is, you know, you're you are stating that there is a there are certain things that that latter day Saints covenant not to disclose, like in public and, and outside of temples, but there is a whole lot right that we can that we can and probably should discuss. Right.
00;27;53;14 - 00;28;13;21
Nicholas Shrum
Because it helps us both from a scholarly perspective to understand how religion functions in society and and culture. But there's also just, you know, really fascinating history there. And, we can learn a lot about, you know, language and ritual and, and in your case with liturgy and, and, and how that works in a community. So I really appreciate that.
00;28;13;23 - 00;28;15;05
Jonathan Stapley
Thank you.
Argument of Holiness to the Lord
00;28;15;08 - 00;28;39;06
Nicholas Shrum
Okay, so getting into some of the content here, I, I you have a great argument in the introduction. You say that quote, throughout the nearly 200 years since Joseph Smith introduced it, the temple has remained a liturgical space where latter day Saints generate a sacred cosmic identity, the temple as a site where the latter day where latter day Saints order their bodies, their communities and their universe.
00;28;39;08 - 00;29;07;24
Nicholas Shrum
Moreover, this work has not been static. This identity generation is the product of continual adaptation and response to cultural change. And I'm wondering if we can and we want to be considerate of time, but I would love to break down parts of this argument, especially for, for latter day Saints themselves, because you are making an argument about the practice that if they go to the temple, it's something that they participate in kind of a fresh take on what they're doing and also the history to what they're doing.
00;29;07;24 - 00;29;19;25
Nicholas Shrum
So I wonder if you can break this down, starting with how does the temple and the rituals practiced in it construct and shape a latter day Saints sacred cosmic identity? Right? Question.
00;29;19;27 - 00;29;48;05
Jonathan Stapley
It is a huge question. And I'll confess, just at the beginning, that I'm grabbing a little bit from scholars that are smarter than me, and have analyzed the function of religion and ritual folks like Thomas Tweed and Crossings and Dwellings. Then I think Steve Taysom, uses really quite effectively, I think Tom driver's, liberating rites is useful and accessible.
00;29;48;10 - 00;30;12;14
Jonathan Stapley
So if you're looking for looking, if you want to understand the function of ritual, ritual theory can be impenetrable even to the smartest folks. Catherine Bell is brilliant and smart, but like I, it's also kind of sometimes frustrating to grapple with. So these are ideas that are not unique to, to to my study of the latter day Saint temples.
00;30;12;16 - 00;30;37;26
Jonathan Stapley
But I think, as you said, not very many people are thinking about these ideas in relation to them. And so, religions help, people construct a cosmology. And so, I get asked this question a lot because I use the term a lot. Like what? What do you mean by cosmology? Because in our modern world, we're used to thinking of cosmologies in terms of astrophysics.
00;30;37;26 - 00;31;15;26
Jonathan Stapley
Right. Folks, cosmologists are out there looking for neutron stars and dark matter. But religious cosmologies are like a thing, like scholars have been talking about them forever, and people have been experiences experiencing them, for as long as we've had, records. So religious cosmology, in fact, just to use the scripture, Christians are familiar with the, the scripture, like, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.
00;31;15;26 - 00;31;56;05
Jonathan Stapley
Right. That's foundational. Christian axiom, and the world God so loved the world as the cosmos. And in Greek, the cosmos with the K is the structure of the whole of things. It's not just the world on which we live or the people. It's, all of the governments and principalities and powers on earth and in heaven, the astral planes, the, angels and beings that populate that ot that whole of things that the cosmos and religions help situate us where that where we are in relation to all of these things.
00;31;56;05 - 00;32;32;24
Jonathan Stapley
And so, most people in modern life don't imagine like tiers of, powers in between God and them. And with, a plenitude of, of beings. But we humans, even atheists, construct an identity of who they are and how they belong in the universe. And the temple, it's. And I think latter day Saints would recognize readily.
00;32;32;24 - 00;32;58;05
Jonathan Stapley
Oh, yeah. Yeah. We, in Sunday school, we talk about, what what they call the plan of the salvation or what Latter-Day Saints called a plan of salvation, where we come from, what we're doing here and where we're going. And the temple, the temple endowment ceremony makes this vision of the whole of things an immersive experience.
00;32;58;07 - 00;33;37;21
Jonathan Stapley
But the structuring of, our communities through, what is essentially kinship rituals, right? Where we're structuring, our communities, restructuring our relationships in terms of eternal kinship, that really change how we relate to each other, or how people relate to each other, both in their families and, in their congregations. But also kind of as a, worldwide community, frankly.
00;33;37;23 - 00;33;38;27
Nicholas Shrum
Yeah, no, that's really helpful.
00;33;38;27 - 00;33;40;25
Jonathan Stapley
And the the.
00;33;40;26 - 00;34;03;29
Nicholas Shrum
Temple is a probably I mean, I imagine for most latter day Saints as, as I think you argue, probably one of the primary sites that this kind of understanding of a cosmic, and sacred identity. Right. So when latter day in the latter day Saint vernacular talk about being children of God. Yes. There scripture that that, that, that details this, that describes this, that says this.
00;34;03;29 - 00;34;30;10
Nicholas Shrum
But for latter day Saints, this becomes an embodied, realized experience of, oh, I okay, as a human being. This is my relationship. Cosmic cosmological i.e. to to deity. Truly. And and you have a wonderful extended discussion of kind of what this relationship looks like. Parentally. And how that looks, how that's changed, right, of what is the true relationship between human beings and deity?
00;34;30;15 - 00;34;54;12
Nicholas Shrum
What is the, how what does deity look like? As far as being embodied and, where does deity reside? Like, all of these things are things that the temple, has, has debated and and tried to figure out. Moving to the next section of your argument, you say that it orders, the, the temple liturgical space, right?
00;34;54;12 - 00;35;05;12
Nicholas Shrum
That it orders bodies in communities. And you've already spoken to this in your previous answer. But I'm just wonder if you have anything add to add as far as literally ordering bodies, anything that you would.
00;35;05;14 - 00;35;35;29sex
Jonathan Stapley
Yeah. So, I mean, the temple regulates, now the temple as a, as an idea as well as a specific space. It orders food waste, orders sexuality. I mean, these are, this is how we use our bodies on a daily basis. Is structured by our relationship to the temple. So, and it changes over time.
00;35;36;01 - 00;36;10;16
Jonathan Stapley
Most, observers of, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints will be aware that Mormons don't drink coffee or tea, or they avoid alcohol and don't smoke. And that, that idea, was introduced in the 1830s, but it wasn't until really the, eventually I'm gonna write an article on this, hopefully with a colleague.
00;36;10;18 - 00;36;31;25
Jonathan Stapley
We've had dates that I think are wrong, but ultimately, by the early 1940s, there's strict prohibitions on accessing the temple, related to, strict prohibitions on consuming those, intoxicants. So.
00;36;31;27 - 00;37;19;10
Jonathan Stapley
There's that there's, questions of sexuality, who we have sexual relationships with is changing over time. You know, in the 19th century, there's certain ideas about, you know, marriage that are no longer held by latter day Saints. And then you start getting into questions of gay marriage and LGBTQ issues, and, how we can express our sexuality is really, determined by not, I would argue, not so much by sin and the fallenness of humanity, but by what?
00;37;19;13 - 00;37;32;17
Jonathan Stapley
Behaviors you have to follow to access the ceremonies of the temple. And I think that's interesting. Within broader Christianity.
00;37;32;19 - 00;38;11;26
Nicholas Shrum
Yeah, I agree, that and I'm glad that you brought up that angle about how bodies are ordered. And again, it is it dictates or influences the way that latter day Saints that have that have gone to the temple and gone through these, ordinance of ordinances, right. These religious rights, how they, how they go about their, their lives that decisions are made on a day to day basis based upon, either those covenants that they've made in the temple that got them there in the first place, or thinking about it in the future, that if I'm going to return, if I'm going to be able to, to have this experience again, this
00;38;11;26 - 00;38;16;07
Nicholas Shrum
is how you know, the behavior is regulated from day to day. So that's really helpful.
00;38;16;11 - 00;38;37;16
Jonathan Stapley
Yeah. I mean, even like how we dress. Right. So people that have gone to the temple commit to wear the garment in the last year there's been a lot of excitement because the church has changed the pattern and removed sleeves, for folks, those new garments are available in, the Global South right now.
00;38;37;16 - 00;39;02;14
Jonathan Stapley
They'll be available available in the United States by the end of the year. Supposedly. And people have spent a lot of effort describing and discussing the impact of that, you know, change in underwear pattern, in how they can dress and what activities they are willing to do without them and with them. It's remarkable, frankly.
00;39;02;16 - 00;39;21;13
Nicholas Shrum
Yeah. And the last part of your argument, this, that this work has not been static, right? That it's a product of continual adaptation. I think we can actually get a already a really good sense of how these things have changed. And our, both are pushing up against culture, but then are responding to culture, at different times.
The Nauvoo Period
00;39;21;13 - 00;39;50;21
Nicholas Shrum
And I'm actually wondering if one of the ways that we can kind of get an example of this or a sense of this is my next question about this, a Nauvoo period. And you've written about this previously and, power of godliness. But you know how the the meaning of the temple and the construction of religious identity, what underwent a really significant shift during the Nauvoo period, so roughly the period of 1839 began at 1839 through 1845 to 1846.
00;39;50;25 - 00;40;07;17
Nicholas Shrum
I'm wondering if you can tell listeners what was so significant about this time. Well, why was it crucial? And then this is, you know, I say this a little bit tongue in cheek about what has been lost, quote unquote lost since this time. That might be enlightening or interesting for listeners, especially if they're a latter day Saints.
00;40;07;20 - 00;40;39;15
Jonathan Stapley
Yeah. So, latter day Saints, if you go to a latter day Saints service, there's a high likelihood that someone will say something about priesthood. And the current, lexical value that latter day Saints assigned to that term, are distinctive. They don't share. They share a distinct death. The latter day Saints have a distinct definition of priesthood that they do not share with broader Christianity or the rest of the world.
00;40;39;15 - 00;41;14;13
Jonathan Stapley
Frankly. But what's important historically is that that, definition has changed over time. So the latter day Saints have kind of a catechism in their general handbook of instruction that describes it as the power of God, and authority of God. And I'm going to set aside kind of the theological ramifications of that, because I think it's just sort of fascinating, like describing God first and foremost as a priest is interesting.
00;41;14;16 - 00;41;44;16
Jonathan Stapley
But the broader world would see, priesthood as, a group or order of priests, just like a neighbor in a neighborhood or the capacity of, of of a priest. And, it's in Nauvoo that Joseph Smith. So he's he's identified these biblical archetypes early in his prophetic career, but it's in Nauvoo that things get supercharged.
00;41;44;19 - 00;42;17;08
Jonathan Stapley
So I mentioned earlier the book of Revelation, John of Patmos, beholds the throne of God. It's surrounded by, a concourse of kings and priests dressed in white, kings and priests from every nation, kindred, tongue and people made clean through the blood of the lamb. Singing, hymns to Jesus. And this is like the Book of Revelations, chock full of lots of, bizarre and violent imagery.
00;42;17;11 - 00;42;55;10
Jonathan Stapley
But this imagery, this vision of the throne of God. Joseph Smith identifies early on as, as something worth constructing. And Christians often talk about kings and priests and recognize this, this language. But Joseph Smith identifies it and then introduces ceremonies, religious ceremonies, liturgies to materialize it. So he's going to take humans, human beings, and use the temple to construct this community of kings and priests.
00;42;55;12 - 00;43;27;29
Jonathan Stapley
And expands it. It's not just kings and priests, but queens and priestesses. And then he goes so far as to say that heaven is like heaven isn't a place. It's not a reward. Heaven exists only in so much as the network of relationality that exists between kings and priests and queens and priestesses exists where these kings and queens and priests and priestesses don't exist.
00;43;27;29 - 00;44;11;15
Jonathan Stapley
There is no heaven. And so it's this collapse of priesthood and heaven and government and salvation all into one. Whole that people called the priesthood, in fact, and this is what was so challenging, I think, for scholars in the 1970s and 80s that we're the 90s, frankly, as they approached the these documents from the Nauvoo era, from the, as you said, 1839 to Justice Smith's death in 1844, they would find women who were incorporated into the priesthood.
00;44;11;17 - 00;44;43;12
Jonathan Stapley
Men and women would attend the priesthood or the priesthood order or the quorum. And if you keep your, kind of modern, distinctive definitions of priesthood, there's no real use. Like, it just breaks things like, or you just lean into presentism and make conclusions like, oh, clearly, women had the ecclesiastical priesthood of the church and don't anymore.
00;44;43;14 - 00;45;28;08
Jonathan Stapley
But I think, I think the best reading of the data is that, this priesthood, this collapse, this cosmological priesthood, I use the term which is a little precious, but I still like it. This temple priesthood, this community, of as the again, to reiterate, priests and priestesses as the destiny of an interconnected humanity. Clarifies the work not only of the temple, but, of Joseph Smith as prophet and what he is trying to do with all the weird things that are happening in Nauvoo.
00;45;28;08 - 00;45;57;20
Jonathan Stapley
So we have things like, plural marriage, polygamy that are introduced and, introduced in ways that kind of defy expectation. He's being, sealed, to use the vernacular, to women who are already married and, what these relationships mean. And I think, looking at it as an interconnected network of kin really changes our understanding of of what's actually happening.
00;45;57;22 - 00;46;40;07
Jonathan Stapley
And to add to sorry to jump in. No, please, to your last question about like, what's lost? I don't like declension narratives per se, but, I think what's clear is that, over time, latter day Saints have developed new and different ways of talking about the work of the temple. So, if today, that we, they teach their children that you need to go to the temple so that you can have an eternal family, Brigham Young would have said, we need a temple so that our children can be integrated into the priesthood.
00;46;40;09 - 00;46;57;16
Jonathan Stapley
And those, like, they almost feel like non-overlapping circles in the Venn diagram does feel like two different things, because we don't have the tools to unpack these sort of lexical like oddities.
00;46;57;19 - 00;47;16;06
Nicholas Shrum
Now that I'm, I don't like declension narratives either, but I think that this is an interesting way to think about it, especially for, a nonacademic latter day Saint audience. They might hear this description of a Nauvoo cosmology or Nauvoo priesthood and and be like, well, I mean, that sounds familiar. That sounds maybe good, but at the same time, that's not how we talk about it.
00;47;16;06 - 00;47;29;27
Nicholas Shrum
And so maybe a follow up question is, do you is and you don't have to answer this, but do you is is this still happening in temples today? This this cosmic Nabu cosmology, priesthood understanding?
00;47;29;29 - 00;47;57;25
Jonathan Stapley
Yeah. I mean, what is clear is that the, these conceptions of priesthood are imprinted on to the liturgy and to the material culture of the temple. So, the, the religious underwear of the latter day Saints, where after they go to the temple, the formal name is the garment of the holy priesthood. They wear the robes of the Holy priesthood, both men and women.
00;47;57;27 - 00;48;36;11
Jonathan Stapley
They are being, washed, anointed and consecrated like the ancient Israelite priests, as they enter the temple. And so I think the, the kind of ritual and ceremony itself, still is accessible from that kind of older, framework, even though the texts have changed and how we perform, things have changes. There's still that, that foundational even if we, in popular readings don't narrate it that way.
Exaltation
00;48;36;14 - 00;49;06;22
Nicholas Shrum
No. That's helpful. One of the, the concepts that I think does, and I think your book does a good job of showing that that does kind of translate across time. It might have different understandings. And I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that. Is this concept of exaltation. So when you mentioned that today, latter day Saint children might be raised with the expectation that they go to the temple so that they can be, sealed as an eternal family, one of the the other teleological end points for latter day sense is this concept of exaltation.
00;49;06;25 - 00;49;17;25
Nicholas Shrum
So I'm wondering how you understand that term and, how you have a chapter dedicated to this concept, how it might complicate or confirm how latter day Saints think about that today.
00;49;17;27 - 00;49;42;21
Jonathan Stapley
Yeah. So I guess what I'll say, first of all, and I'm, I don't think I ever offer normative definitions for terms, because they, I'm much more interested in how latter day Saints use the terms across time, and I don't want to tell latter day Saints what they should believe. Again, I'm interested in how they have believed and currently believe.
00;49;42;24 - 00;50;08;18
Jonathan Stapley
And exaltation is a really interesting case because Joseph Smith early on is like, look, he, he uses exaltation to describe the like the highest, the greatest blessings that God can offer. Right. So what is the endpoint if you do everything right and give receive all that the father has to offer to you the kind of Christian terms right.
00;50;08;20 - 00;50;55;29
Jonathan Stapley
And he is surprisingly ambiguous. He has a set of sermons, he has he introduces the temple liturgy, but it's not, super obvious. What the full consequences of what he's teaching actually are. So he talks about, the caricature, thanks to the counter cult ministries of the late 70s and early 80s is that Latter-Day Saints get their own planet, which I don't think is I mean, I don't think is documented really anywhere in that kind of construction, although I can see where, where it came from.
00;50;56;02 - 00;51;32;13
Jonathan Stapley
But this idea of deification or Latter-Day Saints becoming gods or like God, is not a clear of what that actually means during Joseph Smith's life. But after he dies, oh man, church leaders are, nothing short of exuberant and, at describing what they believe, exaltation to be. And they, present conflicting but highly detailed and granular.
00;51;32;15 - 00;52;06;09
Jonathan Stapley
Narratives of what, being a god is. And they, it's largely analogical. So they look at what is happening in embodied mortal life and they're like, oh, just I'll just, extend the line off the paper and see how far we can, extrapolate. And they create varied, explicit, narratives about heavenly reproduction and the creation of and generation of spirits.
00;52;06;12 - 00;52;41;04
Jonathan Stapley
In the 19th century, Brigham Young famously introduces his, Adam God beliefs or what I call this garden garden cosmology because I'm idiosyncratic. But. Human reproduction or biological reproduction becomes, like, exalted to to come back to the term exaltation means this, like eternal fecundity. In the 20th century, I think so Brigham Young's ideas are deprecated.
00;52;41;04 - 00;53;13;11
Jonathan Stapley
They become heresy in the church. And I think people are uncomfortable with that level of specificity. So throughout the 20th century, there's with every generation, be there's become increased levels of abstraction, and ambiguity introduced into the narratives to the point where I, I'm not sure, like if you grew up in the church, like I said, I was born in the 70s.
00;53;13;14 - 00;53;42;17
Jonathan Stapley
I was in high school in the 90s. I certainly got elements of kind of those folk beliefs about what exaltation is. But if you look at church demographics today, with the preponderance of members being, outside of the, you know, Mormon culture region in the Intermountain West, I, I think this is an area that we need to study and look at.
00;53;42;17 - 00;54;03;00
Jonathan Stapley
Like what what does exaltation mean? To the hundreds of thousands of people that are practicing in, Africa, Asia, Latin America and Europe. I think it's a really interesting and, and an open question.
00;54;03;02 - 00;54;33;27
Nicholas Shrum
Yeah. I'm immediately thinking this is a little bit insider baseball, but almost to the point, in the last couple of years, we can have a phrase in latter day Saint culture of like, think celestial. And I don't totally know what that means. Like in certain contexts. I mean, it means to certain people, into the present in the church that that, you know, that coined that in a general conference, but to the point that it can be just reiterated in, weekly sermons in church.
00;54;33;27 - 00;54;48;17
Nicholas Shrum
And that will mean something completely different to somebody else. And. Yeah, but in the 19th century, say, think celestial might take on more of like a garden cosmology type of a thing. And that could have some really interesting daily practices and thoughts.
00;54;48;17 - 00;54;55;07
Jonathan Stapley
So, absolutely. Yeah. No, it's remarkable.
Race and the Temple
00;54;55;09 - 00;55;22;17
Nicholas Shrum
What wonderful. I want to be, consider of your time before we get to the concluding questions, I, I would like you to because it takes, it takes on such a significant portion of your book and your argument. You have a wonderful chapter on the centrality of race to temple worship and liturgy. You argue that, the latter day Saint quote history of race is integral to the Latter day Saint construction of cosmic identity mediated by the temple.
00;55;22;19 - 00;55;29;22
Nicholas Shrum
And so I'm wonder if you can guide listeners, briefly through the significance of this chapter in your in your treatment of the temple.
00;55;29;24 - 00;56;08;25
Jonathan Stapley
Yeah. So, it's no surprise to people familiar with the church that, the, the institution excluded black folks from full participation, in the church and for the 20th century, that locus of exclusion was largely centered on the ecclesiastical priesthood of the church. So people talked about a priesthood restriction. And scholars, you know, increasingly are talking about a temple and priesthood restriction because it was black people were excluded from the temple and the ecclesiastical priesthood of the church.
00;56;08;28 - 00;56;45;11
Jonathan Stapley
And, my argument is, is that it was first and foremost a restriction on the temple and access to the cosmological priesthood or this, eternal kinship. It was excluding, people from sub-Saharan African ancestry, from the family of God, first and foremost, but I, I think it's a bigger argument, than just, you know, latter day Saint racism, although it's clearly racist.
00;56;45;14 - 00;57;11;24
Jonathan Stapley
The in the beginning, Joseph Smith's, a kind of access to this vision of John of Patmos was that it was people from every nation, kindred, tongue and people that were represented in this concourse of priests and priestesses. And, he and his First Presidency wrote that he expected to worship in the Nauvoo Temple with folks from Africa.
00;57;11;24 - 00;57;56;21
Jonathan Stapley
So he is, integrating, all peoples into this vision of heaven. It's the the narratives that upheld slavery, among Christians in the United States were, Brigham Young turned those and filtered them through the cosmology of the temple. And created a narrative that, took over a century, to remove. And I think the church is still working with the ramifications, of those, racist, beliefs and policies.
00;57;56;23 - 00;58;31;14
Jonathan Stapley
But when it comes to race in the temple, I think it's important to note that, yes, there are, ideas of whiteness that are, incorporated particularly in the 19th century and early 20th century, into this broader cosmology. But, latter day Saints, and I'll go so far as to say that I think the evidence suggests that the it was the specter of interracial marriage between black and white folks that precipitated Brigham Young's turn towards this, temple restriction in the first place.
00;58;31;16 - 00;59;07;28
Jonathan Stapley
But it was Brigham Young who also actively encouraged latter day Saints to marry Native Americans in Utah. So, in my view, he's like, he seals a Native American elder to a white woman. And it's celebrated. And so it's not just, you know, white men taking, native spouses. It's it's going both directions. And Polynesian folks are coming and accessing the temple and joining the heavenly priesthood.
00;59;08;01 - 00;59;32;25
Jonathan Stapley
Early on. And so it's much more complicated than black and white and white supremacy. There is a conflation of race, that's also happening, as latter day Saints, interact with the indigenous folks, both in Utah and in Polynesia.
00;59;32;28 - 01;00;04;00
Nicholas Shrum
Yeah, I this is one of the most fascinating chapters. And we've had, recent guests on the podcast talk about the temple and priesthood restrictions on people of black African ancestry in the church. And I think that your chapter on race is a really helpful addition to that scholarship, because it. You know, so we had Matt Harris on the podcast and he talks about kind of the, the afterlife of justifications for the, the restriction and how that was harmful.
01;00;04;00 - 01;00;31;21
Nicholas Shrum
And I think the the way that you describe this restriction, this racism, right, being said through this lens of a of a particular cosmology helps explain the longevity and the survival of those kinds of beliefs for so long, because it's not just in terms of this is policy or this is what is prudent. It is, it is it is much, much deeper.
01;00;31;28 - 01;00;33;29
Jonathan Stapley
And it's based on a religious cosmos.
01;00;34;02 - 01;01;17;13
Nicholas Shrum
It's it's based on the cosmos. This is the the you know, the ontological reality of existence is based upon hierarchies or this, this justification of this is how some people are. And I think to put it in those terms is really, really helpful, especially for, contemporary latter day Saints that maybe, you know, in the last couple of decades, coming to terms with the the historical record on this and our but have also been tasked by church leadership to lead out in rooting out racism, to to really challenge kind of how, you know, contemporary latter day Saints understand the cosmos and how everybody fits into that.
01;01;17;16 - 01;01;20;10
Nicholas Shrum
So it really, really helpful chapter. Thank you for.
01;01;20;12 - 01;01;41;05
Jonathan Stapley
That. Thank you. So what I'll say is that, this chapter, more than any anything I've ever written, the chapter on race relies on the good work of folks like Paul Reeve and all the folks that have volunteered for the Century of Black Mormon, Matt Harris and Ed Kimball. I couldn't have written what I wrote without all their hard work.
01;01;41;07 - 01;01;55;08
Jonathan Stapley
But I am perhaps more as proud of this chapter as anything I've written as, as a contribution, to the field and how it moves, what I believe moves the narrative forward in important ways.
01;01;55;10 - 01;02;19;11
Nicholas Shrum
Oh, absolutely. I mean, and it helps to explain, I mean, it's so many, so many things, so very, very grateful. And I hope that, and people will, both, you know, and enjoy reading it because it is good scholarship, but also, you know, especially latter day Saints to, to recognize some things as well. In the interest of time, I will just tell listeners that your final chapter, which is an absolutely fascinating chapter.
01;02;19;11 - 01;02;39;10
Nicholas Shrum
And if you want to talk about I would love to hear your thoughts, but is about, death and funeral rituals in relation to the temple. You write that quote just as the temple, as a mechanism of identity construction that orders latter day Saint life. It is also the ritualized center negotiating death. So is there anything that you would like to add?
01;02;39;10 - 01;02;45;16
Nicholas Shrum
Just as we're as we start to wrap up the podcast about this, this chapter is a fascinating chapter.
01;02;45;18 - 01;03;16;28
Jonathan Stapley
I guess what I'll say is that there's one of my favorite anecdotes is a little Easter egg. If you want to read the chapter about Laurel Thatcher Orrick in graduate school. Preparing the body for burial of a woman that she ministered to in her small congregation. Out east. And I just think it is the most poignant and lovely, vignette that kind of explains the work of what this is doing and a wonderful way.
01;03;16;28 - 01;03;19;19
Jonathan Stapley
So look for that, I guess.
Concluding Questions
01;03;19;22 - 01;03;40;26
Nicholas Shrum
Absolutely. It's a an awesome chapter. So to to wrap up, I always ask guests, a series of, of questions. Just to kind of, demonstrate the, relevance of a study like this to the broader study of religion. And I have already had some, I think, really good thoughts about that. As we began, chatting today.
01;03;41;02 - 01;03;48;16
Nicholas Shrum
But why should people not necessarily interested in Mormon studies, read holiness to the Lord?
01;03;48;19 - 01;04;14;05
Jonathan Stapley
So I, I'm going to reiterate a little bit of what I said before, and that's namely that, the Latter day Saint archive is so dense and rich that it provides just a wonderful amount of data to work with. So I'm always going to be skeptical of, again, this is my training as a scientist coming in.
01;04;14;06 - 01;04;51;22
Jonathan Stapley
I'm always going to be wary and skeptical of frameworks and theories that have a small n to use the, statistical language where there's, 1 or 2 examples. I'm always questioning whether they're outliers or not. And here there is just so much material that we can use to challenge our frameworks, and challenge what we think we know that, it it's just an opportunity for, really making our theories and frameworks, more robust.
01;04;51;22 - 01;05;32;10
Jonathan Stapley
And, increase the possibility that they're accurate, frankly. So, that's just the, fact of the Latter day Saint archive. I also think, so I build off Seth Perry's work a bit, and I think, like his his book is fantastic. And I think this shows how, just more widely applicable some of these fun fundamental theories can be the performed to biblical ism and American, religion in particular, that the use of data to make those arguments, is useful.
01;05;32;10 - 01;05;34;15
Jonathan Stapley
So.
01;05;34;17 - 01;06;06;18
Nicholas Shrum
Absolutely. I think that it makes those, those contributions to the study of American religion and they're, they're, they're excellent. Last question, content wise, I'm also I'm just interested in, could you comment on how this project so developing kind of the ideas for it and then researching and writing it, and now that it's, it's essentially complete, how did it influence or confirm your approach, to the study of religion and in general, I mean, how religion operates.
01;06;06;18 - 01;06;19;26
Nicholas Shrum
So I think we already have a really good sense. Listeners will have a good sense of how you see religion operating in human, you know, reality and in practice. But I'm just wonder if you have any closing thoughts about that.
01;06;19;29 - 01;06;48;11
Jonathan Stapley
Yeah. So, I guess what else is the process of this book? I wrote it fairly quickly, although I'm a I write first drafts quick, and then I revise compulsively and with scores of drafts. But I've researched this book over the last 20 years, so it's amassing research. And I finally felt like, I was at a point where I could, do justice to the topic, kept enough.
01;06;48;11 - 01;07;29;04
Jonathan Stapley
I accumulated enough dry powder, as they say, to, to make it go at it. And so I mentioned Laurel's a little vignette. I guess what is, as I've returned to the sources that, I've collected over the decades as I've worked to create narratives, and to analyze these experiences of these individuals, I guess I'm, so I don't necessarily, believe, so I'm a practicing latter day Saint.
01;07;29;07 - 01;08;14;13
Jonathan Stapley
But it's easy to see how my life and experiences at church are dissimilar from folks in the 19th century, like in ways that make it almost unrecognizable. But there is a shared humanity as we approach life, death, birth, the strict construction of kin. The, was just deeply moving. On a human level. So, for me, it was not only a useful scholarly, experience, to, to create this book and perform the analyzes that it does.
01;08;14;15 - 01;08;33;13
Jonathan Stapley
But it was enriching as a human being. I feel more empathetic. I feel like I can connect to the past in ways that I couldn't before, and that's extremely gratifying. Both as a scholar and as a human being.
01;08;33;15 - 01;08;56;03
Nicholas Shrum
I really appreciate your thoughts there. Just the the continued importance of, both the humanities education and research in the humanities. I think that some of the best scholarship does that, and it allows people to, be compassionate and, and see themselves in a certain sense, in the experiences of people in the past and in historical scholarship.
01;08;56;03 - 01;09;14;03
Nicholas Shrum
But then in religious studies scholarship, you know, these are really central questions that, that are shared, that people, manifest in different ways. And I think that, your book does a really awesome job of that. So thank you. Last question. What's next for you going forward?
01;09;14;06 - 01;09;46;13
Jonathan Stapley
I've got a number of collaborative project projects that I'm working on with Jessica Nelson. We've got a history of women's, participation in latter day Saints sacrament meetings, praying, giving sermons and testifying. It's quantitative. We've got a database of over 50,000 events across the world over, you know, 120 years. It's rad. With David Gara, I'm working on, a history of the Lord's Supper and, with some friends.
01;09;46;13 - 01;10;05;01
Jonathan Stapley
We've got some kind of popular, kind of general audience, materials about the temple that we're hoping to have out for, Salt Lake Temple rededication and time for that. So a lot of fun, fun projects. Well, we look.
01;10;05;01 - 01;10;28;25
Nicholas Shrum
Forward to those and hopefully we can have you, back on the podcast at some point to discuss future, projects that you're working on, but really appreciate this discussion. Again, listeners, this is, Jonathan Stapley, discussing his upcoming book, holiness to the Lord Latter day Saint Temple Worship, that will be published with Oxford University Press, in October 2025.
01;10;28;27 - 01;10;30;21
Nicholas Shrum
Jonathan, any parting thoughts?
01;10;30;23 - 01;10;46;08
Jonathan Stapley
No. Just thank you so much, Nicholas. You're clearly, very smart and careful reader. And it's extremely gratifying to have, your careful reading and questions and to have a discussion about it. Thank you so much.
Outro
01;10;46;11 - 01;11;06;06
Nicholas Shrum
Absolutely. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Scholars and Saints. Please be sure to come back to hear more conversation soon. But special thank you to Harrison Stewart for production, editing, and to Ben Howington for providing music for this episode. To hear more, visit Mormon guitar.com. Thank you for listening.